Poker Players Alliance ForumsPoker Is Not A Crime: Discuss The Fight

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1. nmaiorana
   Member

   I would like to start a new thread discussing the lack of security on-line poker players have against the sites providing games. I have been in the business of software for over 20 years and I know how the lack of checks and balances can create fraudulent situations when electronic transactions take place.

   As poker players, not only do we care about being allowed to play the game we love. We also want to know we are getting a fair game. The events this year with Absolute Poker and UB have made it clear that on-line poker sites still have holes to plug when it comes to security.

   By using the electronic data required to run a hand of poker, internal entities (either through internal personnel or software) provided certain players with active hand data. These players had a tremendous unfair advantage over the other players and ended up stealing (not winning) hundreds of thousands of dollars. The problem is that in order to run the system, the data needs to be stored somewhere. The solution is to make sure the data can not be linked to the hand being played until after the hand is complete.

   There are ways to secure the data during an active hand. By using an independent 3rd party to govern the events of an active hand, players would be insured of a fair game with the proper security measures to prevent internal fraud. The independent 3rd party could shuffle, deal and maintain the active hand data for the on-line poker room. As long as the active hand data is obscured until the end of a hand, it would not be possible for internal fraudsters to provide the information to any players.

   This solution can and should be used by any on-line poker site wanting to demonstrate that it is operating a legitimate business. Anyway I would be interested in hearing any thoughts on this subject.

   -Nick
   Product Development
   Secure Card Dealer, LLC

   Posted 3 months ago #

2. kidkash
   Member

   My first thought is "How can anyone trust a third party?"
   Just because the third party is a seperate entity is does not mean that they are not capable of doing what AP/UB did.

   Also, I want to mention from your other post, There has been nothing but unfounded baseless statements made about poker stars & Full Tilt having the same kind of scandals. Nobody that had any experience with the people running Ultimate bet were shocked over this.

   No doubt - there has to be checks and balances however your dealing in a multi-billion dollar industry, most people dont really understand how much money the poker sites make and it is in their best interest to run a safe reliable and trustworthy business. What's eventually going to happen is both AP and UB will cease to exist from the bad publicity.

   I doubt very much that PPA wants to get to involved in this area right now, as they need to work with government to exempt poker from gambling first then maybe they can be some sort of watch dog or player protection group.

   Aaron

   Posted 3 months ago #

3. nmaiorana
   Member

   One of the concerns from congress and the senate is the safety and security of on-line poker. Having an independent 3rd party to ensure against internal fraud is a great weapon for the PPA to use in it's argument for on-line poker.

   The independent 3rd party's responsibility is to prevent internal fraud. It would have to take every measure necessary to disallow any unscrupulous activity. This can be solved technically. With the appropriate measures, even the 3rd party won't know which active hands it is dealing for. By obfuscating the hand ID from both sides it would be quite difficult for anyone to determine the cards being dealt for a specific hand.

   Without the independent 3rd party, you are relying solely on the poker site for security. Even a poker site intent on providing a fair service can be subject to internal fraud. Financial institutions and businesses have to combat this every day. This is handled by brokering transactions or auditing by independent 3rd parties. For this purpose, the independent 3rd party would not handle financial transactions, just the management of virtual cards for the poker sites they serve. This type of service can be used for many types of on-line or electronic gaming, not just poker.

   I agree the other sites have not had any legitimate reports at this time. However, a little insurance up front can make sure the other sites keep their good reputations and provide piece of mind for their players.

   -Nick

   Posted 3 months ago #

4. kidkash
   Member

   Well done Nick, I aggree with the above 100%

   Posted 3 months ago #

5. nmaiorana
   Member

   Is this topic not as important to everyone as it is to me? How can congress allow on-line poker when security holes exist in the current system.

   -Nick

   Posted 3 months ago #

6. e2eglobal11
   Member

   there's an even dirtier part to this story, that's buried in the thread at 2+2:
   "The guy who was on the same IP as the user 363 had his email set to an email that is hosted by Kahnawake Gaming Commission. "
   This is going to get a lot uglier in the next few days. It's also going to destroy any chance of legalization here in .
   ==========================================================
   [url="www.asciitech.com"]asciisol[/url]
   mojes

   Posted 3 months ago #

7. nmaiorana
   Member

   There is a new link on the Secure Card Dealer site to send an informative email to poker rooms. http://www.securecarddealer.com

   Posted 1 month ago #

8. imger8
   Member

   Dear nmaiorana,

   I can understand why you are deeply concerned with the integrity of internet poker and I see you do not have a vested interest in the product that you are proposing.

   I am going to "re-post" my solution and ask that you comment, since you are an internet poker insider.

   Why involve a third party when all players need is more information to make decisions if they want to play a particular game, play at a table, or play at a site?

   My solution is as follows:

   Internet sites must make “profiles” and statistical data available for all player on their site. Information such as how long they have been playing at the site, how often they stay logged on at a site, how much money is in their account, how often they need to buy-in, how often they cash-out, etc. By making this sort of information available, players can make an informed decision if they “choose” to play with the players currently at the table. Internet poker makes it very easy for a player to get up and leave a table, if the conditions do not fit a player’s comfort level. This would be very similar to Ebay users who use information such as transaction histories to determine if they want to risk doing business with a complete stranger.

   Internet sites must make all “hole cards” available for everyone to see in the hand histories after each hand. I know that many people will say that this will detract from the game because it goes against the general rule of poker that “one must pay to see the cards”. For those of you who think that your “game” will be limited because too many people will have too much information about how you play your cards, tell it to the players we now see on TV, who have their cards looked upon by millions of viewers. I can watch 5 years worth of video of how Gus Hansen plays his cards, but this does not mean I have some sort of advantage over him. Revealing the “hole cards” in the hand histories will make it difficult for players that have “hacked” the software to go unnoticed. By making this sort of information available, players again can make an informed decision if they “choose” to play with the players currently at the table and if suspicious play occurs, the site can be alerted and the player in question can be monitored.

   Internet sites can spend millions of dollars trying to create secure software, but the truth is that there will always be someone out there who will find a way to breach the system. I recently installed Windows XP on an old computer. Windows has this “activation key” process to prevent software piracy. To make a long story short, I “googled” “Windows XP Activation Key Hack” and found many different ways to get around this problem.

   Cheating will always exist in poker. It has been there from the beginning. Instead of the internet sites using their resources in trying to prevent cheating, they should focus on providing the players with tools to expose the cheaters.

   Looking forward to your response.

   Thanks.

   Posted 1 month ago #

9. nmaiorana
   Member

   I guess you are looking for something entirely different than game security and fairness.

   Having information about a player's profile could not give you any information about that player being an "Super User" or one that is getting information from someone on the inside. I prefer to play poker like I would in a live game. By learning about the players I'm up against and then remembering.

   Making hole cards available for everyone is just plain wrong. One of the aspects of playing poker is concealing your playing strategy from other players. What makes poker so interesting is learning the skill to read and react to player's actions. If I simply look at the hole card information, then I'm taking away from the skill of the game.

   By involving an independent 3rd party the threat of internal fraud and card manipulation can be removed from game play. If players don't fully trust their sites or the fact that electronic data can be manipulated and snooped, then the only solution to bring in an independent 3rd party to effectively manage the shuffling, dealing and concealing of active hand data from the the site and the players. Think about playing in a live game.

   In a live game, players are watching over the activities of the table: Shuffling, Dealing and the Hiding of down cards. On line, players can not watch the electronic cards being shuffled or dealt. They have no idea who is looking at the active hand data and what they are doing with that information. Removing all this from the site is the only way a player can safely say they are getting a fair and secure game. Think of the independent 3rd party as a regulatory body over game play. It's sole purpose is to make sure none of the games are manipulated or being cheated. A better example would be an on line casino where you are playing Craps or Black Jack. Do you fully trust the casino is not manipulating the cards or dice or would your rather have an independent entity handle all the random outcomes?

   In real life we have natural physics, an independent 3rd party, to create the random outcomes and everyone involved can testify (provided the dice are not loaded) to the result. Electronically, the outcomes are generated by software and you still need someone to play the part of the independent 3rd party. Otherwise you will never know for sure.

   Posted 1 month ago #

10. nmaiorana
    Member

    BTW, I do have a vested interest in the product since I am one of the founding members of the company that created it. But we created it because we truly believe that it is the only way to ensure fairness and security in the on line poker world. We created it for poker players like us and we want all poker players to understand it's importance.

    Posted 1 month ago #

11. imger8
    Member

    I understand that you need to sell your product and I wish you great success.

    My suggestions do address the "super user" and "insider" security problems.

    If I review one's profile and see that they have been sitting at the same table for 20 hours straight without moving, then there is concern.

    If I see that a person has great sums of money in their account, and they are playing below their limits, then there is concern.

    If I see that a person has only been playing at a site for a short time, but seems to be doing extraordinarily well, then there is concern.

    If I see cash out on constant basis, then there is concern.

    It would be up to me to decide if I want to play with this person. If I choose to do so, it is at my own risk.

    If this person is a cheater, his business would dry up because he will not be able to get any action. This is how things work in the real world.

    If you "read" what I wrote about showing the "hole" card, you would have seen that I said you would need to review the hand history to see it.

    First, how many people are going to look at the history in real time, especially with the pace of the internet game.

    You need to remember, the problem at Ultimatebet was found because players thought some hands were being played oddly. If we give everyone the ability to police each other, then cheater will be caught real fast.

    The argument about taking away from the game is weak. If this was truly a problem, the pros would not allow their hands to be shown on TV.

    Internet poker will never be B&M poker. It's like the "designated hitter" in baseball. The American League is not true baseball.

    They are not the same game.

    Lastly, if you were a true member, you would never have lumped internet poker in with "other" casino games. We are trying so desperately to distance ourselves from those "other" games. Your statement does not help the cause.

    Good Luck selling your "wares"!

    Posted 1 month ago #

12. IndyFish
    Member

    nmaiorana, I'm glad you finally came out about how you stand to profit if this software is adopted by individual sites. I find it immoral to ask people to send emails to poker sites in order to help you sell a product without telling those people you will directly benefit from the sell of that product. This thread has sounded like a sales pitch from the first post. Having said that, I don't have a problem with the software you are selling. However, there is no guarantee that a third party company will be any more scrupulous than the site itself. See Kahnawake for proof.

    I believe showing hole cards for every player after a hand is over is a horrible idea (sorry imger8). In no time at all, a good player will have a range of hands for every player at the table from every position. The hole cards on TV is a bad example because only a small percentage of hands are ever aired. I know Stars makes hole cards available for every player dealt in a hand, provided the hand went to showdown. (Only the shown-down hole cards are shown.)

    There are several different tracking programs for poker. I personally use PokerTracker (and am not in any way affiliated with the company). This program (and others like it) have been used to find cheaters and there are several threads at 2+2. A player with a very high win percentage at showdown (cheaters won't show down a losing hand very often, if at all) would be suspect. This is just one example.

    Sorry if I come across as an a-hole.

    IndyFish

    Posted 1 month ago #

13. nmaiorana
    Member

    imager8. Super users are users getting inside information from the poker site. It would be impossible to tell who is a super user. That's how UB and Absolute stole money from players. There would be no way for you to detect a super user and the site would just claim that you play bad or are just unlucky. OK, a site will never tell you that, but in the end that is what you would be left to feel.

    Also, you can't fully police players by how they played a hand. Not everyone plays a hand the same way and not everyone makes the best decision. Heck, I had a guy call my raise from the button when I had AK. Sure enough and A came on the flop and I bet it out all the way. On the river however, he re-raised me. We turned over our cards only to find him holding pocket 5s with a 5 coming on the river. Did he thing I was bluffing when I raised pre-flop then bet the flop when the ace fell? Did he know I have an ace, but also knew the 5 was coming on the river? I can argue either way, but the hand itself does not prove he was a super user. Our software polices hands for you while they happen so you won't get cheated while you play. Honestly, how can this not be a good thing?

    Nick

    Posted 1 month ago #

14. nmaiorana
    Member

    IndyFish, no I don't think your an a-hole but I do believe you are being a bit closed minded. For one, I have never hidden the fact that I am a founding member of Secure Card Dealer. My first posting stated it. As far as the integrity of our company, our sole business is to insure a fair and unbiased game along with additional security measures not provided by current poker sites. This is a good thing for on line poker and poker players. You simply can't trust that electronic data is not being manipulated or snooped. Our product, and I stand behind it 100%, will provide the necessary piece of mind necessary for poker players to focus on their game.

    Did you know that Kahnawake is a parent company for UB and Absolute or at least they are run by the same tribe? And Kahnawake does not actively monitor the games, they just audit the software and the data. All which can be manipulated. So there was essentially no one watching the watcher who had a vested interest in the manipulation or unfairness of hands being played. Our company only provides a low cost service to the poker room based on hand volume. No matter what the outcome, we do not gain additional profit.

    Our software does not show the hole cards of every player. We simply provide the poker room with the information so that it can determine a winner in the end. As for finding cheaters, they will always be out there and will find new ways to cheat. We are closing the door on one of the forms of cheating along with removing the card rooms ability to juice the decks to produce bigger rakes. I'm not saying all poker rooms do this, but I'm sure it has been done. As a player, if there is no independent 3rd party watching out for you, you can never be sure what is happening to the electronic data during a hand. You would have to trust the card room implicitly and trust that it's employees are not doing any inside scams.

    I'm sorry you don't believe in our product. We built it for poker players protection and this should be a perfect forum to introduce players to the concept. The PPA is for player's rights and protection. Even if our product is not used, the idea is viable and deserves to be looked at as a solution to provide on line poker players the best, most honest experience possible.

    Nick

    Posted 1 month ago #

15. IndyFish
    Member

    Nick, my humble apologies for not seeing where you stated you were a founding member of the software developer. And I didn't say I didn't believe in your product. I simply said there is no guarantee that a third party would be any more legitimate than the poker site itself. What is to keep someone at the third party from doing exactly what insiders at UB and Absolute did? I'm not saying you WOULD do this, only that it could still happen.

    Both major cheating scandals happened at sites owned by the same company (and I REALLY hope it costs them their business). I haven't heard any serious (legitimate, backed up by proof) complaints about any other sites, other than cash-out delays. I do believe there is a place for your software, I'm just not convinced it would make a substantial difference in the poker world. What I would like to see is someone like the PPA that would oversee the sites and ensure that they are running a legitimate game. Verify that hands aren't "juiced" and that a flush draw really is 4.1:1 with one card to come.

    I do wish you luck with your software.

    IndyFish

    Posted 1 month ago #

16. Tahosa65
    Member

    I went to the UB/AP site and asked for a refund of the money I had lost on that site. They refused. I identified myself as the Colorado State Director for the PPA. They then promised a refund. That was over two months ago. No refund has ever arrived. I think that UB/AP will go under if they haven't already. As to an independent 3d party. If our current bill makes it into law, I would think that the PPA would or should have a positon in formulating U.S. law-rules-regulation on any poker sites based here. Who better to act as an independant oversight entity.
    Gary Reed
    Colorado State Director

    Posted 1 month ago #

17. nmaiorana
    Member

    IndyFish, I really do enjoy discussing this subject. My passion for a fair on line poker game is what inspired the DealGuaridan product. Our business is based on a fair, unbiased and secure on line poker experience, any deviation from that and we do not have a product to sell.

    Having said that, its the technology we built that allows us to provide an on line poker player with the expected poker experience. What we have is a method to encrypt and conceal the active hand data so that no one on our site, or the poker site can cheat or provide a player with an unfair advantage. Even if someone on our side were to gain access to the data, they would have no way to tie it to a hand on the poker site. We want to protect the player from both sides.

    We put a great deal of thought on how to make on line poker secure. We strongly feel we have the best solution for the on line players.

    -Nick

    Posted 1 month ago #

18. aksplace
    Member

    just found this post, I agree this is a huge concern and until we can come up with an answer its not smart to even attempt to legalize.

    this is a huge concern!

    Posted 1 month ago #

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