http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ Poker Players Alliance Forums: Forum: State - AZ - Recent Posts en Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:11:38 +0000 http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/372#post-1182 Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:35:13 +0000 KenK2 1182@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I am sick to my stomach.. Yesterday, the Tucson Police along with the Ariz. Dept of Gaming siezed all of Club Royales possessions. Here is the article..</p> <p><a href="http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/273121" rel="nofollow">http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/273121</a></p> <p>This is an outrage how 1 sided the story is and I am really pissed! Here is a copy of Harold Lee's statement to the press, sent out this early morning.. This is BY FAR FROM OVER! At this point I know what I want to do, but implementing it is going to be tough. We need to band together, all players from Az and let them know how we feel about this! They cannot just do this to us and get away with it! The Pima County Prosecutors dont even know if they are going to Prosecute!</p> <p>*****For Immediate Release ****</p> <p>Tombstone, AZ a joint press release from:</p> <p>The International Card &#38; Game Players Association and the Arizona Card Room, Inc</p> <p>We cannot comment on the case against Johnny or Donna Rodger as we revoked the club’s license and charter on November 7th for cause, and reported our concerns to the Tucson police at that time. </p> <p>Playing poker for cash is not illegal conduct in Arizona!<br /> Third party profit taking, from lawful conduct, is not illicit or criminal conduct.</p> <p>All lawyers trained in the law would insist that I not talk to the press any further; pending the outcome of potential criminal charges. And, that is solid lawyerly advice, but precisely why we will not be retaining a lawyer for the looming battle. We have been spoiling for this fight for nearly four years in our attempt to free the sport of poker, from the clutches of the gambling industry, and their allies.</p> <p>However, it appears from press reports that the Tucson police are being used by the quasi-legal Arizona Department of Gaming (ADOG) to shake down our professional players and force them back into the criminal enterprise run by their employer; the Indian gambling casinos. It won’t work this time either.</p> <p>The Arizona Department of Gaming; for at least the forth or fifth time, is attempting to coerce our professional players back to the reservation casinos, where they can continue to steal from our prize purses and soil our contests with gambling schemes. And they would like to closet me in some jail for providing safe and secure venue for my friends and associates, whom just want to conduct their lawful business of playing cash poker.</p> <p>This quasi-police agency supported only by gambling industry money (no tax dollars) has no business in our poker rooms and they know it! The folks at ADOG need a leash; and a course in what constitutes abuse of prosecution. Their continued boorish behavior is moving them ever closer to the edge. </p> <p>They have continued to prosecute our ACR System, even though their boss (the Arizona Attorney General) and the Cochise County Attorney have denied repeated request to prosecute! In fact, the Attorney General announced publically in June, that he cannot obtain a conviction. </p> <p>And, he is not alone; seven cities have issued licenses for our ACR System. They had good reason; we are not breaking any laws! And, we provide a very good public service to the community.</p> <p>Whereas, ADOG and their employers (the Indian casinos) are stealing money from our members prize pools when they play in their poker rooms. Not withstanding their outrageous attempt to sanctify theft and conversion in an illicit compact with the state---raking the pot is theft. And they should be prepared for the industry’s large counter-claim for many years of their continuing theft and conversions of our property. We are gaining strength every day.</p> <p>We are also gaining refuge in the cities and towns that recognize the inequities of previous pubic policy regarding the sport of poker. Indian casinos, like most of the casinos in the gambling industry, victimize the professional poker players. They invade our contest, and discreetly rake money from the prize purse (lots of it) which they then use to soil the integrity of the game with silly jackpot schemes.</p> <p>Ever increasing public demand for poker rooms is evident by the fact; that in just a few months of operation we garnered over a thousand members. And the reason wasn’t as reported “just because we offered a true no limit game” it was because we charge players accessory fees up front, and for about half the amount they steal. </p> <p>The prosecutors in Arizona are aware that the social gambling exemption is flawed. And, many of them aren’t too comfortable with the gaming compact either; since it unlawfully creates two separate and unequal classes of voters, each under different criminal liabilities. </p> <p>The act of social gambling is a unique creation of the legislature; crafted solely to protect adults engaged in professional strategic competitions from criminal liability. It is a clear sanction for our very old and beloved profession of Poker. Poker, like all other sports wants to be free of the influence of the gambling industry---and we will. It is only a matter of time.</p> <p>The Social gambling law does not make cash poker a criminal act! </p> <p>It does however; criminalize the admirable and very lawful act of third parties earning profit from lawful conduct, such as providing safe haven for adults playing cash poker.. </p> <p>The only acts criminalized under the social gambling provision of the gambling law are third party profits from lawful conduct. Understanding all other acts being lawful there is no criminal activity or conduct available to prosecutors in the act of earning money or a profit. And providing services and a safe environment for those engaged in lawful conduct must be prima fascia evidence of legality. In all cases; playing the sport of poker professionally is clearly not unlawful conduct in Arizona--- promoting the sport of poker is not the equivalent of promoting gambling. </p> <p>Under the social gambling statute; the State is attempting to manufacture a crime from whole cloth, by assigning criminal conduct to an accessory of a lawful act by the principal? If this appears to be nonsensical then you understand the problem. </p> <p>There are no lawful grounds under statutory or common law; for the state to criminalize marketers that provide goods and services to lawfully sanctioned conduct---like playing cash poker. </p> <p>A larger problem for the police, than the vague and nonsensical social gambling exclusion, is Arizona’s exemption for bona fide businesses; poker easily qualifies. </p> <p>State law exempts from the criminal gambling laws; ANY bona fide business whose transactions are subject to the law of contracts. And, we are more than prepared to establish our bona fides to any judge or jury. The Sport of Poker is exempted from the gambling statutes in Arizona by being a bona fide international sport and profession of long standing. </p> <p>The public already acknowledges our bona fides; we are the third highest viewed sport on ESPN and, our professional players hold untold billions of dollars of bona fide contracts. And none can argue that the prize pool in a poker match is anything other than a contract. We are clearly a bona fide global business within the sports and entertainment industry---our right to self regulate and police our sport will not be denied us! </p> <p>This is why we are in discussions with state lawmakers and lobbyist; we support state regulation of our industry. However, we feel that the growth of poker requires that the state respond by helping our industry and our millions of fans to organize our lawful industry and sport. Not illegally prohibit or restrict access to this benign adult amusment. Adult amusements as popular as poker; cannot be prohibited or suppressed, but they can and should be regulated. </p> <p>In spite of our egregious treatment in this case; we will continue organizing our business, while continuing to work with community leaders and officials. Or, anyone else wanting to help us bring this great old sport out of its insalubrious environments and into fair, safe, and very transparent venues, sanctioned by the players. </p> <p>Sincerely, </p> <p>Harold Lee ---Founder of the International Card &#38; Game Players Association, Inc<br /> Tombstone, Arizona</p> <p>*****For Immediate Release-----Contact person Harold Lee (520) 559-5306**** </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/372#post-1181 Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:02:22 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 1181@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Here is the article: <a href="http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/272397.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/272397.php</a></p> <p>Certainly disappointing that we did not get any type of resolution out of the Courts. This suit was ill-conceived and not likely to succeed in any event. I suspect this will embolden the tribe in the future. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/372#post-1180 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:46:40 +0000 KenK2 1180@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Hey Fellas..</p> <p>Well, Donna at Club Royale has chosen to shut her doors. I am going to assume she did not want to fight the tribe for various reasons. </p> <p>When they started the Club, she made a crucial mistake, IMO, in not protecting herself by forming an LLC or Corp, so if and when you do get sued, they dont come after everything.. So the Tribe listed all that she owns, her house, tattoo parlors, etc.. She is also in the middle of a divorce and could not get split from Johnny because of the civil suit.. She has been having some fun with the younger guy and he was really pressuring her to get divorced hence was another reason for her decision.. </p> <p>I am hearing of another club(Tucson Card Club) opening up right after Christmas so stay tuned.... From what I understand, this club WILL NOT be associated with Harold Lee.. If anyone wants ANY more info, let me know, I will be happy to give it to you... ;)</p> <p>K </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/276#post-1175 Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:35:35 +0000 azmarc123 1175@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I'm in! Let's get this going! </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/355#post-1167 Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:12:18 +0000 KenK2 1167@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Steve,</p> <p>Judge Lee and I met a few nights ago in Phx., along with a few other cardroom owners and according to him, it has been extended.. I am unsure as the what the new date is at this time. I will keep you posted..</p> <p>Ken </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/355#post-1162 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:06:23 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 1162@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Ken,</p> <p>Due to work, I won't be able to make it down to Tucson for the hearing on the 15th. I would defininitely be interested, however, to hear about how it goes (if it does not get delayed again) as well as your take on the proceedings, as would others, I am sure. </p> <p>Please post an update after you attend.</p> <p>Thanks,<br /> Steve </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/175#post-1161 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:46:20 +0000 KenK2 1161@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Steve,</p> <p>I will email you tomorrow.. A lot has changed since my last posts here.. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/355#post-1160 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:45:13 +0000 KenK2 1160@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Steve,</p> <p>Its still set for the 15th at 2pm. I will be in the audience along with, and I assume, a bunch of other people.. I am hearing from some sources, do not know how legit they actually are, that the case will again be extended... </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/260#post-1144 Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:19:48 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 1144@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Fleming is an attorney in the northeast. He has his own section on the forum called "Asked Skallagrim." Check it out. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/175#post-1143 Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:18:39 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 1143@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>You can reach me at <a href="mailto:AZ@pokerplayersalliance.org">AZ@pokerplayersalliance.org</a> </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/355#post-1142 Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:17:33 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 1142@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Ken,</p> <p>I apologize for being AWOL lately. Been really busy at work and I imagine the holidays as well as the general concern for the economy has been partly at fault for the lack of activity in the past few months.</p> <p>Can you give us any update as to the lawsuit against the cardroom in Tucson?</p> <p>Steve </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/355#post-1130 Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:55:17 +0000 KenK2 1130@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Fellas..</p> <p>Where is everyone?? The Lawsuit against Club Royale is upon us and there has been ZERO talk about this in the last 5 weeks.. Why are we so dead here in this section of the forums?? </p> <p>Ken<br /> Tucson </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/175#post-907 Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:55:59 +0000 KenK2 907@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I live in Tucson and can fill the vacancies in Tucson/ Oro Valley.. </p> <p>Let me know what I need to do..</p> <p>Thanks!</p> <p>EDIT: Emailed you too.. :)<br /> EDIT #2: Email came back to me.. Let me know where to send this.. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/260#post-901 Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:23:22 +0000 KenK2 901@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Hello, who is Mr. Fleming? </p> <p>Thanks </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/276#post-897 Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:11:10 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 897@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I am always up for some beer, good food, and some poker. Anyone else? </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/260#post-896 Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:09:22 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 896@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>This is a very tricky legal question and I would certainly suggest you consult a lawyer to determine the legality and requirements to operate such a business. I would also be paying close attention to the current lawsuit in Tucson by one of the Indian tribes against one of the ICPGA poker rooms to see how this all plays out.</p> <p>There are certainly some concerns about the legality of such an operation in Arizona, but the Attorney General's office has not committed one way or another at this point, though somebody from that office said they would not prosecute because they did not think they could get a conviction. They can always change their mind though.</p> <p>Judge Lee and the ICPGA certainly believe they are engaging in legal commerical activity, but you will have to make that determination on your own when you consider whether to open one of these card rooms. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/238#post-895 Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:03:57 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 895@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>The hearing was futher delayed until December 15. I will let you know when I learn of any other developments. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/260#post-831 Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:42:36 +0000 breeze81 831@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I was wondering this myself.</p> <p>I would love to get that info and see if opening one in Michigan is legal and feesable. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/276#post-827 Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:42:31 +0000 chukphx 827@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Arizona members I had a death in the family recently and have had other things going on and have not really been active the last month but I think we need to meet and get some serious planning done. There are many things going on right now and its not looking good for this game we all love. A quote comes to mind and I am not sure who said it but I think the message is clear enough "the only cure for despair is action". There are elections, candidates and things we need to collect information on and inform others about members and non members alike. We need to set up a committee and work on recruiting members and garnering media attention. I am more than willing to open up my home to a meeting because I really feel like this is a crucial time for poker and definitely not a time to be complacent if you care about this game and your civil rights and liberties concerning it, please let myself or arizonapokerplayer know so we can set up something and why not have a game and some good food as well? I also know a local brew master at one of the Rock bottom Breweries and I'm sure he would give me a friendly discount on a keg of beer as well. I'm willing to make it fun and provide the place if we can get the bodies to one of these meetings. As always we are open to suggestions but we need some motivated bodies to get our state chapter(s) going, our message and our rights to play this game alive and kicking. Anybody else feel this way if so lets take action outside of these blogs and do something. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/260#post-826 Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:23:58 +0000 chukphx 826@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>You should ask Mr. Fleming about this Chad. Steve, I am curious about this as well do you know anything about it? It does seem odd that you would have to apply/ perhaps pay for a business license and why would they give you the ok to do something that in regard to the law is still in that fuzzy grey area. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/238#post-825 Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:19:12 +0000 chukphx 825@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I read the article I was confused here "The tribe's assistant attorney general, Kimberly Van Amburg, said the action is being taken because the Arizona attorney general has not brought a case against Lee in the two years since the Arizona Department of Gaming suggested prosecution." So I thought it was the tribe bringing suit why does it say here that the Arizona Department of Gaming <strong>suggested</strong> it two years ago? Is the Arizona attorney general doing this on the general principal of procrastination or on behalf of the tribe who wants to bring suit? I just find it odd its like yeah gaming told us to do this a couple years ago and now this tribe is preturbed so lets go ahead with this. I wish I could be there tomorrow anybody want to split the cost of gas and go? </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/238#post-823 Sun, 28 Sep 2008 18:21:21 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 823@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Update on this story:</p> <p><a href="http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/related/94444" rel="nofollow">http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/related/94444</a></p> <p>Hearing is set for tomorrow.</p> <p>Stay tuned. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/260#post-776 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:13:25 +0000 CABARNETT 776@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I have read that the ICGPA members have opened a poker room in Arizona.<br /> What are the legal requirements needed in regards to business licensing? What category would this business fall under if currently this type of activity is considered to be illegal? What other measures would need to be taken at the legal and official level to do this properly?</p> <p>Thanks for reading and for those who respond!</p> <p>Chad </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/238#post-666 Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:42:34 +0000 arizonapokerplayer 666@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>PPA is aware of the suit and will be in touch with Judge Lee.</p> <p>You can find the Gaming Compact at: <a href="http://www.gm.state.az.us/compact.final.pdf." rel="nofollow">http://www.gm.state.az.us/compact.final.pdf.</a> You can see for yourself that there is no exclusive right. In fact, check out section (h) on pg. 18, which says that were poker to be legal elsewhere in the state, it has no effect on the tribal restrictions, at least that is how I read it.</p> <p>It is sad to see taxpayer dollars wasted on this suit. The tribe is essentially asking the court to tell the attorney general's office to prosecute. But there is a little something called prosecutorial discretion that they have to deal with. I can't go into court and tell the court it should tell the AG's office what to prosecute or that it should tell somebody he or she can't speed anymore.</p> <p>This is just an example of a tribe whining to try to induce the AG's office into action. Give me a break, they ought to be happy they have any gaming, and have a complete monopoly at that. The Indian casinos can continue to offer "gambling" at their casinos and we will continue to play skill games, such as chess, poker, backgammon, etc. anywhere we damn please. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/241#post-665 Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:25:20 +0000 kidkash 665@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Chuck, as steve knows I am waiting for my marching orders, just let me know how I can help..</p> <p>Aaron </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/238#post-664 Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:20:58 +0000 kidkash 664@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <blockquote><p>"The state gave the tribes the exclusive right to open this kind of operation," Ochoa said.</p></blockquote> <p>This has to be a false statement, there is no exclusivity pact with the tribes in anything that I have ever read. </p> <p>I hope that the PPA has been in contact with Judge Lee and will be assisting with the case going forward. </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/238#post-663 Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:15:33 +0000 kidkash 663@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I knew it would be the tribes either directly or indirectly that went after these rooms. game on I guess for Judge Lee.... </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/127#post-652 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:41:40 +0000 chukphx 652@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>As I said in our meeting I have to agree a little media would not hurt to make it an issue and I think we should cook up something. I would be happy to go down in front of one of these offices and try as long as it was with in the PPA's guidelines for such actions. i think we should contemplate this very carefully and it should be a major topic at our next meeting. Good having you there Groo! </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/241#post-651 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:35:30 +0000 chukphx 651@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>Some of you have may have read my posts and I just wanted to let everyone know I am Arizona's Assistant State Director. I have been a resident of Arizona for over three years and am very ready to serve the PPA and you all. My name is Charles Marshall but feel free to call me Chuck and if I can help any of you with anything PPA related please do not hesitate to contact me. Steve and I have been working closely on lots of ideas and definitely want to get more meetings going for members, raise our membership here and make an impact on the unclear laws that affect us as poker players and citizens of this great state. We also would like to get a formal committee going and in the future meet with many of our states representatives on the various levels of government. I know I speak for both of us when I say we are open to ideas from all and if anyone wants to get more involved please contact one of us. I look forward to defending the game and helping any of you if I can. Thank you Steve and hope to meet many of you, whom frequent our states forum (lets keep it the busiest!). </p> http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/topic/238#post-650 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:20:26 +0000 chukphx 650@http://pokerplayersalliance.org/forums/ <p>I certainly did not think it would come from Native Americans when it happened. I can't say that they have the right to sue, do they? How can they have their lands and their own form of government and step in to sue someone that has nothing to do with their casino operations other than say give some people a place to play poker somewhere else. I mean they are making plenty of money and I am positive they are not doing all of the things they are supposed to do with their profits. Not saying this is their tribe or the case every where but for example why are so many native Americans around the queen creek area living in shambles and others living in nice new suburban homes? Have you all seen the development down there (we want our lands to be ours but yet lets build homes for non-tribe members and sell them for outrageous prices) They got a raw deal and I am ashamed of the long history of injustices to them but they have the loop hole and can make tons of money and still get a monthly check from our government. I guess it comes down to you can't have your cake and eat it too? Definitely don't mean to offend any Native Americans but wouldn't it be like me defecting from the US and then saying I don't agree with our government and then trying to bring suit or something similar? Perhaps this will be good for Lee if they can bring suit and he wins. </p>